Portuguese is the poor man's Spanish

[Puro Híbrido]

Before "French" as we know it became a unified language three languages were spoken in what is geographically France today:
- Latin
- Langue d'Oc (gascon, provençal, auvergnat, dauphinois)
- Langue d'Oil of germanic origins spoken north of the river La Loire.
Until the beg. of the 16th century, those 3 lang were spoken is FR.

You forgot to mention Briton, in Brittany, and Alsacian.
And the golden age of Occitan/Provincial was in the Middle Ages, with the love poetry of the trubadors.

[Oman]

[..]


You forgot to mention Briton, in Brittany, and Alsacian.
And the golden age of Occitan/Provincial was in the Middle Ages, with the love poetry of the trubadors.

Actually I did not forget... It's just that I am a lazy "batard" ...
But yes, in "Oil" you could find briton, alsacian, picard...
What you call Alsacien is what evolved into today's Wallon I believe.

[Galaaz]

Enoc, Portuguese evolved from Spanish??? Do you mean Latin?... Portuguese was not the 1st written Romance language, but the second. The first was provençal (occitan), Portuguese ortography (like the "nh") even derives from it.

Portuguese, Spanish , Italian and French and even the isolated Romanian, are not Creoles of Latin. These languages are extremelly complex to be creoles. And they do not have much influence on formelly native languages. There are just an handful of words prior to Roman rule in most Latin language. The latin that people read, was not the Latin vulgarly used by Romans. What the Romans spoke is not so faar has today's Latin languages.

An example. Mouth in classical Latin was "os" in Vulgar Latin spoken by Romans during the Empire was "bucca", in Portuguese today is "boca".

I have noticed that unfortunately a lot of Anglo-Saxon people out there really thinks Portuguese is a dialect of or evolved from Castillan ("Spanish").


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[colombian_girl]

[..]




I have noticed that unfortunately a lot of Anglo-Saxon people out there really thinks Portuguese is a dialect of or evolved from Castillan ("Spanish").


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HOW IS PORTUGUESE A DIALECT OF SPANISH? THEY ARE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THIS
NOT ONLY IN AMERICA PEOPLE THINK THIS, IN EUROPE TOO, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS TALKING TO A GERMAN FRIEND OF MINE ABOUT LADINO, KOLUMBO, MAGREBI AND PAPIAMENTO (FOUR SPANISH DIALECTS) OR LANGUAGES DERIVED FROM SPANISH, AND HE ASKED ME IF ALL THESE SPANISH DERIVED LANGUAGES WERE SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER. SO I TOLD HIM YES TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, THEN HE GOES AHEAD AND TELL ME NOT TO FORGET THAT THE MOST SPOKEN SPANISH DIALECT OUT THERE IS THE BRAZILIAN.

I DON'T KNOW BUT I EXPECTED EUROPEANS TO BE LESS CLUELESS, BUT I GUESS NOT.

[Enoc]

[..]




I have noticed that unfortunately a lot of Anglo-Saxon people out there really thinks Portuguese is a dialect of or evolved from Castillan ("Spanish").


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what's the problem?...who gives what somebody thinks...is the anglo's opinion/perception that important that you feel like crying...omg

[Pedro]

[..]



HOW IS PORTUGUESE A DIALECT OF SPANISH? THEY ARE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THIS
NOT ONLY IN AMERICA PEOPLE THINK THIS, IN EUROPE TOO, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS TALKING TO A GERMAN FRIEND OF MINE ABOUT LADINO, KOLUMBO, MAGREBI AND PAPIAMENTO (FOUR SPANISH DIALECTS) OR LANGUAGES DERIVED FROM SPANISH, AND HE ASKED ME IF ALL THESE SPANISH DERIVED LANGUAGES WERE SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER. SO I TOLD HIM YES TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, THEN HE GOES AHEAD AND TELL ME NOT TO FORGET THAT THE MOST SPOKEN SPANISH DIALECT OUT THERE IS THE BRAZILIAN.

I DON'T KNOW BUT I EXPECTED EUROPEANS TO BE LESS CLUELESS, BUT I GUESS NOT.

The problem is that NOrthern Europeans don't study latin American History, so they don't know. MOst people deosn't realise Brazil has nothing to do with Spain. SO they invent the most imaginative theories to explain their language, it's either a dialect of Spanish, or a mixture between Spanish and native languages(I've heard this one) or Portunol (mixture between Portuguese and Spanish). They are clueless, but then again who cares? It's their problem if they're uncultured.

[colombian_girl]

[..]



The problem is that NOrthern Europeans don't study latin American History, so they don't know. MOst people deosn't realise Brazil has nothing to do with Spain. SO they invent the most imaginative theories to explain their language, it's either a dialect of Spanish, or a mixture between Spanish and native languages(I've heard this one) or Portunol (mixture between Portuguese and Spanish). They are clueless, but then again who cares? It's their problem if they're uncultured.

oh in northern Europe they are clueless, they had Argentinian asado restaurants in the netherlands with a mexican guy with a huge sombrero on the advertisemente. LOL Argentina and Mexico aren't even remotely alike

is like me opening a french restaurant and putting the kremlin as the advertisement.

[Puro Híbrido]

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS TALKING TO A GERMAN FRIEND OF MINE ABOUT LADINO, KOLUMBO, MAGREBI AND PAPIAMENTO (FOUR SPANISH DIALECTS) OR LANGUAGES DERIVED FROM SPANISH

Actually, Papiamento is a creole derived from Spanish and Portuguese:

It is a creole language based mainly in Portuguese, Spanish and African languages as well as Amerindian languages (maybe Arawakan), English and French. Dutch is a modern influence. But, Papiamento actually derived from the Pidginized Portuguese spoken among Sephardic Jews and their slaves after they fled Brazil, and from Spanish by Spaniards who came later in the 16th and 17th century. Then, after the Dutch Empire got the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao) from the Spanish, Dutch colonists also inserted many Dutch words into Papiamento. Venezuelan Spanish is a constant influence nowadays.

Wikipedia

[TeknoPortuga]

[..]
Actually, Papiamento is a creole derived from Spanish and Portuguese:

Actually, papiamento is a Portuguese Creole influenced by Spanish, because of the similarity and because it is close to Spanish speaking countries and it became influence by Spanish speaking inmigrants. Today most agree that it really is a Portuguese Creole, some years ago, people used to think that it was a Spanish Creole.

For us, Portuguese and Spanish are very different. But we should understand that for a person of anglo-saxon culture were are all very similar.

[Puro Híbrido]

Actually, papiamento is a Portuguese Creole influenced by Spanish, because of the similarity and because it is close to Spanish speaking countries and it became influence by Spanish speaking inmigrants. Today most agree that it really is a Portuguese Creole, some years ago, people used to think that it was a Spanish Creole.

According to Wikipedia, it's both... What are your sources?

[TeknoPortuga]

[..]


According to Wikipedia, it's both... What are your sources?

a lot of reading - several sources including speaking with Papiamentu speakers.
Papiamentu from Aruba is more influenced by Spanish, for example, and the new words they are taking from Spanish, because they thought it was a Spanish Creole. The two Portuguese creoles of the Americas were badly studyed (papiamentu thought to be a Spanish Creole and Saramacano to be an English Creole) - because people do not study they often do pre-judgment.

even the name of the language is Portuguese derived. Papiamento papia+mento
it is not linguajeamiento

Papia is an old Portuguese word that means language.

[colombian_girl]

oh so papiamento is some sort of creole language between spanish and portuguese?

I live pretty close to a papiamento speaking country called aruba, and i would have never guessed that papiamento was portuguese influenced, i alweays thought it was spanish with dutch.

but now that i think about it i realize that they say bem venido as welcome, and some other words that are like portuguese

now my question is, how is papiamento portuguese influenced? was aruba and other papiamento speaking countries part of portugal at one time?

[colombian_girl]

ok guys this is what i found on aruba's home page.

In Aruba we speak, write and read English, Spanish, Dutch and Papiamento fluently. Many also speak French and Portuguese. Where did Papiamento come from? Papiamento came from the neighboring island of Curacao in the 1500's to enable African slaves to communicate with their owners. In addition to their own language, Portuguese and Spanish missionaries, Dutch merchants, South American traders and Indians added additional words.

http://www.arubatourism.com/arubaandpeo ... mento.html

interesting!!!!

[TeknoPortuga]

now my question is, how is papiamento portuguese influenced? was aruba and other papiamento speaking countries part of portugal at one time?

yes and no. Portuguese were also in that area. Coraçao (is from Portuguese "coração" heart). "barbados" is Portuguese for beared, etc. But Linguists think the Portuguese Creole was brought from Africa, were the language had a "lingua Franca" status. It was also brought there by Portuguese jews. Spanish influence came later.

[Lusófila]

Portuguese is the poor man's Spanish.

Oh, is it?....


I SWEAR I HADN'T THE SLIGHEST IDEA ABOUT THAT!...


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